Comments on: Will There Be A New Intifada?

By: persianadvocate

persianadvocate — Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:05:59 +0000

Andrew,
I just read your latest article, "Fighting the Media War in Gaza", and I am thoroughly impressed with your analysis -- it is spot on. How annoying must it be for you to have Joe the Plumber lampooning as a journalist? I especially liked the ending... very clever.
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You are right that there is definitely a media game going on and both sides are playing dirty. But, more logic should be applied to this finding to reach a greater truth. I'll ask two questions to get the ball rolling: (1) Which side has the bigger, more powerful, capable apparatus in play for propaganda purposes? And, (2) which side is losing the media game?
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If you answered Israel twice, then that's probably because they are playing a game of hide the truth, which we all know is a futile venture and more difficult to do than uncovering lies.
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I think you should consider it a wholesome validation of TIME's good reputation in the world when the Zionists are claiming TIME is the leader of a faction that represents the truth and, therefore, is an enemy to Israel. I, for one, will remain a longtime subscriber and devoted reader. I am more than sure others will, too.
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For everyone else, here is the article I am writing about: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1871487,00.html

By: Zionoo

Zionoo — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:30:27 +0000

[...] That short trip to the West Bank was more than just a wake up call for myself. What's happening there should serve as a warning to Israel More: Will There Be A New Intifada? (Time Magazine) [...]

By: jjworleyeoe

jjworleyeoe — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:06:54 +0000

@Beach2015 #1) Look, man, war is war! As Colin Powel said, if you go to war, use overwhelming force. I'm quite sure that if Hamas had more sophisticated weapons, possibly even chemical or biological, they would put that stuff on Kassam rockets. And as for the gorilla warfare tactics, well each side simply has to adjust their countervailing tactics. From everything I've seen, it appears that Israel does a pretty good job of attempting to limit civilian casualties, but I still hold that these civilians are still culpable with their having elected Hamas into power. If they decide these guys are not worth the effort, then let's arm the average Palestinian and let them throw Hamas out. 2) I'm not saying their going to die, but I am saying they won't have the monies to arm themselves nearly to the extent they're doing today. Again, if Iran and Saudi Arabia didn't have oil over the last 60 years, the would be a lot less global terrorism that's based on radical Islam. The basic problem is that oil has allowed these despotic, religious regimes to control and dominate the entire Middle East. If the demand for their oil goes away, then these countries and their people will be forced to either live in the stone ages or adapt their religious and cultural beliefs to more secular and open markets in order to tap the human potential that's there but being held back by corruption. George Bush is right in one thing. The Middle East needs a healthy dose of Democracy. 3) The moderate leaders of the Middle East are held in check not by American or Israeli policies. Instead, they are held in check by corrupt, religious regimes that have 1/4 of the world's oil. Again, see the central point of #2. Oil is what's killing the Palestinians. OK. I'll add an important socio-economic element that certainly doesn't help matters: over population. Going forward, the major problem of poor countries / regions is the inability to slow population growth. Bethatasitmay, I'm not holding my breath for peace in the Middle East. Why? Because Iran will get the bomb, which will set off a wave of nuclear proliferation, resulting in the religious zealots thinking they have the power to re-establish an Islamic Caliphate. Ultimately, anything right over moderate Islam isn't compatible with modern society. So until oil is removed from the equation, the much larger moderate Islamic voice will be smothered by the religious zealotry of radical Islam. If you can figure out how to change that well in advance eliminating demand for Middle Eastern oil, then you need to publish a book and let everyone in on the grand plan. Yes. I general try to keep it cordial. In the case of ljoe, well I'll call him an asshat, in the event he's characterizing me as a typical white european grabing lands. The last I check, the Middle East was partitioned up after the two great World Wars. Since that time, the Arabs have repeatedly started war after war, which resulted in some of their land being taken by force. Since that time, Israel has allowed more and more Israelis to settle in these territories. Well, isn't that a bummer. The Arabs and Jews lived peacefully with one another until the powers at be decided that Jews deserved a state 60 years ago. Well, folks we're not going to turn back the clock, so everyone has to figure out a way to deal with it. THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE RADICAL YAHOO'S CAN'T DEAL WITH IT, WHICH IS NOT AMERICA'S OR ISREAL'S FAULT.

By: 1joe

1joe — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:10:21 +0000

Yap yap yap, how typical for white european imports to grab lands in middle of another continent and as we speak, still holding UN designated occupied territories and attacking populated cities with phosphorus artillery against UN rules, and better yet bombing UN building all over the neighborhood, and blaming millions of people which in last 60 years have been put in prisons and killed for not willingly give their lands to people having a fairytale land deed from god himself with notary seal from their arm suppliers, you got have a sense of humor to absorb these B.S. from Zionists, remind me of rants of white africano's!

By: beach2015

beach2015 — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:01:03 +0000

This discussion is getting interesting, and at least we can claim that it is civilized so far!

I think there are three major flaws, in the last two posts:
1) The circumstances as you pointed out are very different than it was in both World War I & II, but not only because the world will never unite to support a position totally tilted towards aggression by Israel against mostly unarmed civilians, as we learned from our misadventure in Iraq. It is also different because we are not fighting a regular army. In this war, we are fighting millions of the sons and daughters of collateral damages that we created through our dumb force. In such case you have to fight ideas that grow out of grievances. This type of war is much more difficult than fighting tanks. We know about this very well from both Vietnam and Iraq.
2) This whole idea that if we stop importing oil, Arabs will die is dead wrong. If the Arabs don't have the money our economy will lose 300 million loyal customers and we will feel the pain as much. At the mean time, there are enough customers in the world to import this oil, one of them is our largest trade partner China.
3) The leaders in the Arab world are incapable of representing their fellow citizens and this is the reason that buying their loyalty or scaring them will not help. These leaders have been weakened by the positions of the American and Israeli governments.

Because of the above, I believe that the only solution is to peel the layers of extremists until we get to the hard core, which is beyond repair. This hardcore will be destroyed by its own people when they feel that it doesn't represent them anymore because their grievances are addressed.
I happen to believe in the right of Israel to exist, and I happen to believe that the current actions by the IDF and the government are grave dangers to Israel and the Jewish people worldwide.

By: jjworleyeoe

jjworleyeoe — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:53:01 +0000

@Beach2015
That's the whole point, man! You can't reason or negotiate with someone who declares that they want you dead. And labels assigned by the media, you, me, or anyone else doesn't matter now does it? The media, Palestinians, Israelis, et al have been frustrated and protesting for as long as anyone can remember, No? And, I would totally disagree with you about military force not being able to defeat extremism. It bet a similar type of extremism in WWI, but that was when all of the major powers of the time were united in their goal to end Hitler's dreams of an Aryan Race. The problem is that that world has become too politically correct. Our next best hope is ending dependence on oil, because that will dry up the source of income that allow the terrorists to carry out their Jihad. If Iran and Saudi Arabia didn't have oil. There would be no global terrorism.

By: 1joe

1joe — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:47:47 +0000

That's a good news, before Palestinian get their homeland they should have a leadership which they can trust to negotiate for peace on their behalf not someone who is willing to give away the farm in order to stay in power, if other corrupt "moderate" Arab states do change their current leadership to respectable one, then one arguments about "united Arabs" shall come true, after all who are the "moderate" leaders? Wealthy kings and princes or for life selected presidents and their child as a heir for presidency! meanwhile their enemies want them disperse and weak entity as a adversary which they can easily manipulate, Arab people should ask themselves, how many time have western powers sided with their interest and how many times with Israel for a last century, 100 to 1!

By: beach2015

beach2015 — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:00:37 +0000

I'm sorry, but I don't think that you produced any kind of reasoning. Instead, only the labels used day and night in the media. The bad news for Israel, the protests worldwide are showing that the average people are sick and tired of these arguments.
Finally, I agree with you that the best that can happen is a secular government. Would you please tell Israel that? and let us see when they will stop asking for especial treatment as the Jewish state.
I'm personally against Hamas, but as I said previously the actions by Israel are the best recruiting tools for Hamas, Al-Qaeda and other organizations. Not the IDF, the American forces, or any other military force can defeat extremism. It is only ideas, and justice, which allow for two states with full rights of citizenry, would end extremism.

By: jjworleyeoe

jjworleyeoe — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:42:14 +0000

@Beach2015 The Palestinians, moderates or otherwise, have chosen war time and again over the years since the end of WWI. As far as I am concerned, both Arabs/Palestinians and Jews have lived side by side for thousands of years since the days of Ishmael and Issac. Hell. The U.S. was stolen from the native American Indians as was Canada. And, the same could be said for countless other countries around the world. So in this modern era, all of these countries as just supposed to hand back their lands taken by force to those indigenous people? Of course not, just like the Israelis aren't going to hand over the occupied portions of the West Bank. The big fat ugly reality is that this is the price that the Palestinians have paid for choosing war of peace these last 80 years. As you well know, the post WWII Partition put a Palestinian country on the table, but it was rejected by you know who, right? And lest we forget that Jordan was created out of 2/3's of historic Palestine. Why don't all the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank go and live in Jordan for God's sake? I know this is a moot and rhetorical question, but the problem is not on the Israeli side. Moreover, which side has started war after war and turned their back on two real opportunities for peace in the last 25 years? Hamas shot over 3,200 rockets and mortars into Israel in just 2008, which has put hundreds of thousands of Israelis under a fair amount of terror. Yes. You're right. There's no real way that Hamas is going to destroy Israel with Kassam rockets. But the day isn't far from us that Iran is going to have the nuclear bomb, which creates a nightmarish/doomsday scenario really quickly. Finally, you obviously didn't read the URL talking about how ridiculous fighting a proportional war truly is. WWI was the perfect example. Until the U.S. dropped the atomic bomb, WWII severed as the perfect example. Next, Vietnam served as the perfect example in the post Cold War. And, now the current Just War Theory that's been filtering through military and government policy over the past 30 years is doing the exact same thing to extend the global war on terrorism. The Al-Qaeda's of the world are no different than the Hamas, Hizzbolah, and Iranians in that its all about radical Islam that wants to destroy Israel, crush Christianity, and secularism on its march to dominating the four corners of the globe. AGAIN. THE PROBLEM IS NOT ISRAEL OR THE U.S. THE PROBLEM IS WITH RADICAL ISLAM (I.E., HAMAS, HIZZBOLAH, SHIA IRAN, AND WAHABBIST). But the good part is that all of these groups will fall into irrelevance as soon as America and Europe end their dependence on Middle Eastern oil, which I would peg at about 20 years. They key, of course, is to stem nuclear and WMD proliferation. To summarize, I don't give a rats ass about the Palestinian cause until they recognize that moderate Islam is what's needed. Moreover, what the Islamic world needs is more Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's who understood that modern society must be based on secular principles which must include religious tolerance and the rule of law.

By: beach2015

beach2015 — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:37:27 +0000

I'll ask the same exact question, “How much better off are Israelis with a government that controls the land and the lives of occupied Palestine?

It is very easy but greatly deceptive to ask such question. YES, Hamas is an extremist organization, and YES the Palestinian people elected it. However, you fail to mention that the election of the extremists happened after the moderates failed for 41 years -since the 67 war- to bring any rights to their fellow citizens.

The responsibility of this failure falls primarily on the Israeli governments, and their American counterparts.

Yes we refused to deal with Yaser Arafat, and that created Hamas. Israel attempt to break Hamas militarily while creating massacres and hundreds of thousands of grievances will just produce the next generation of terrorists, much deadlier than Hamas.

Now, let us address this other joke about Hamas desire to destroy Israel. How can they? With what? Kassam rockets that doesn't carry explosives?

The Israeli flag has two lines representing the lands between the Nile and Euphrates, should all the countries between these rivers attack Israel until it changes its flag?

It is sad that these types of misinformation about the defensive poster of Israel are still alive, but it is frightening that we ignore or fail to understand that the conditions we create help strengthen extremism.

In my mind, Israel is practicing government organized terrorism that will help create even more extremist movements.worldwide.

The day Israel leaves the occupied territories Hamas will disappear, and it won't matter what they have in their charter, until then we all will pay a price.