Time to Test the Arab Peace Offer

To 22,

'Why wouldn't you demand that Hamas and Hizballa don't use the mosques for stockpiling explosives, the schoolyards (including the UN schoolyards) for firing rockets, and ambulances with UN identification for transporting weaponry? I'll tell you why. It's because the goal of exterminating Jews justifies any means, including using Palestinian kids as human shields."

At the end of the day – even if Hamas militants have indeed used “Palestinan children” as human shields, Israel is still accountable for releasing the trigger and killing them. With all of Israel's sophisticated weaponry and Intelligence might, it's a shame that it has killed more civilians than their “targets”. Isn't it a big wonder that terrorism continues to perpetuate?

And if your claim about the UN school were true, would the IDF bomb it anyway if the school children were Israelis?

I am amazed that these reporters are so unsophisticated that they can't read between the line sof teh Saudi offer. To start with the offer has some merits but the writers of the blog ought to consider what they wrote namely that: In effect, the Arabs are saying, "OK, we've failed to eliminate Israel, enough already. We accept Israel now, so let's get on with life." The Saudi offer by insisting that the Palestinians be returned to their homes in Israel is in effect tryin gto accomplish the same thing. After all if Israel were to permit Palestinians to return to ISrael how long before the Jews becoem a minority in their own country. Who are these guys thinking they are fooling? Themselves. Part of theproblem in teh Middle east and particualrly of the coverage is the total lack of knwoeldge not to mention deliberate obfuscation of the facts.

Will someone enlighten me to issue in regard with the right of return for Palestinian refugees?
If there is going to be two state solution, why would anyone care where refugees going to settle in a Palestinian state of West Bank and Gaza, I guess they can be partly compensated by having free infrastructures from current Israelis settlement areas with help from "Arabs" states which are blowing money on indoor ski resort in middle of desert and etc.!
If there is going to be one state solution, it will not matter if refugees are coming back or not since current residing Palestinian in Israel and West Bank and Gaza will have more people than Israelis in less than a decade according to current birth rate of Palestinians compare to Israelis!
It seems to me, right of return of Palestinian refugees are non issue!

loe tha tis precisely the point the right of return demanded by the arabs would flood present day Israel with Arabs and would end the Jewish state demographically. And you are alos right about wa one state solution as it wil lead to Palestinian dominance. A two state solution is what ISraelis want and at this point most Palestinians want. There is still a third option and tha tis tha the Palestinians inteh West Bank will reert and becoem citizens of Jordan (already a Palestinian state).

To (25):
> And if your claim about the UN school were true, would the IDF bomb it anyway if the school children were Israelis?

What kind of perverse logic is it? Israel doesn't fire rockets from its schoolyards. Israel digs shelters for its population, while Hamas digs tunnels for weapon smuggling. I wonder if Hamas can do anything at all, so that you would consider it responsible, or IDF is always responsible just by (your) definition?

> With all of Israel's sophisticated weaponry and Intelligence might, it's a shame that it has killed more civilians than their “targets”.

matahari8: First, it is simply wrong that more civilians than Hamas militants have been killed. Second, where have you got your military training? On the campus of the University of Berkeley? On what grounds do you decide which proportion of the civilian casualties is "OK" and which is "shame"? Have you ever been into a situation that someone is firing at your children while hiding behind his own children? Have you ever been in a street combat? Do you know what it takes to make a decision in a split second, when you are fired at, but if you return the fire, you may be hitting a human shield that you don't have time to notice?

I have been to Germany. I saw aerial photographs in their museums, showing the devastation to German cities inflicted by the allied bombing at the end of the WW2. Nazi Germany was doomed at that time, the Soviet Army was approaching Berlin. Nevertheless, the Allies bombed some cities to such an extent that no single home was left intact. It was not retaliation, mind you. The reason for the carpet bombing was entirely practical. The Allies were just protecting lives of their soldiers, so that they could take German cities without street combat. Has anybody, anytime, dared to say that the Allies used excess force or targeted civilians? -- No, and rightfully so. You know why. Then show some damn respect to Israel, which, under mortal danger to its existence, holds itself to a higher moral standard than the victorious Allies, by sending its 18 year-old boys into the street combat, in order to save Gazan civilians.

We have heard much about the lack of proportionality in Israel's response to the daily barrages of rockets that emanate from Gaza. I don't recall any Armed struggle when either side went out of its way to create parity—to the contrary all chose to create overwhelming superiority—so I find this a rather strange complaint. However, given that there are some 13 million Jews and more than 1.2 billion Moslems; one can create a proportionality ratio of about 1 Jewish life for each 100 Moslems. To date there have been a little more than a dozen or so Israeli dead and some 800 or so Palestinian casualties; it seems that Israel has acted with some restraint you might say the Palestinians have been disproportionate—400 more Muslims should be dead now. I have to confess I don't recall anyone being concerned about proportionality when we carpet-bombed Afghanistan or executed Shock and Awe over Baghdad. Isn't it a tad racist to expect the Jews to set a better example?

karim, what Israel is doing in Gaza is nowhere near a Holocaust. For you to say so is an insult to the 6 million. 6 million. Did you hear me? 6 million, whose slaughter was cheered and abetted by Hajj Amin Al Husseini. This "Gaza holocaust" smear is typically disgusting Arab trash talk. I thought Hamas loved death ...

To (32):
Equating Israel to Nazi Germany is not the only trick in Karim's arsenal. Here is just a couple of examples.

Karim stated that "the first terrorist organizations in the middle east were Irgun and Haganah". What an incredible mixture of information and misinformation in a single sentence! Wouldn't an unsophisticated reader be convinced? First of all, Haganah never was a terrorist organization. As to Irgun, it was formed in 1931, ten years after the massacres Jews in 1921 and two years after the infamous the Hebron and Safed massacres in 1929. Irgun splintered from Haganah exactly for the reason that Haganah was manifestly against any action that might resemble terrorism. Haganah's policy was to only defend Jewish communities and not initiate counter attacks against Arab gangs or their communities. So, Kerim's allusion that Jews started terrorism in the Middle East is just a lie. By the way, Irgun remained, for all the time of its existence, a marginalized group in the Zionist movement. Haganah itself worked with the British to kidnap, interrogate, and deport Irgun members.

Then, Kerim states that "some of the Irgun members later became Prime Ministers, like Begin and Sharon". Ariel Sharon (b. 1928 - seven years after the beginning of massacres of Jews in 1921) has never been an Irgun member. Menachem Begin (b. 1913) arrived in Palestine in 1941 (20 years after 1921) and yes, he joined Irgun in 1942 and even became its leader in 1944. And yes, he became the Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, almost 30 years after the Irgun activities were stopped. He negotiated the peace deal with Egypt. People change, you know. Mahmoud Abbas once was Yasser Arafat's deputy, and as such could be considered Terrorist No. 2, but now he is apparently willing to negotiate a peace deal with Israel.

A detailed analysis of Kerim's writings would take many pages, because almost every sentence of his is a mixture of information and misinformation. I just don't want to embark on that project, because I am not sure many people are reading this forum.

Dear yprager,
Surely, Karim was referring to Shamir, and not Sharon, as the ex-PM who was another former Irgun member. But your point is valid.

The Saudi plan is bogus. I will tell you what "normalization" with an Arab country means - take Egypt as an example.

Even after a decades old peace agreement with Israel, Egypt has allowed Hamas to arms itself to the teeth. Egypt is guilty of the current events happening in Gaza/Israel right now. Egypt´s border police is responsible for aiding and abetting the Palestinians who seek Israel´s destruction.

Egypt is also the prime supplier of antisemitic literature for the entire Arab World.

With "friends" like this Israel doesn´t need any enemies.

[...] And let's not forget that there are some paths out of the woods that are at least worth exploring; see Scott MacLeod's Time to Test the Arab Peace Offer. [...]

mind cleanse...

Time to Test the Arab Peace Offer - The Middle East Blog - TIME.com is an excellent post. But I feel it is missing on a few points....