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	<title>Comments on: Cloud Over Gaza: A Silver Lining?</title>
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	<description>A blog about life in the hottest and holiest region in the world.</description>
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		<title>By: Hillary Clinton's First Test Likely in Gaza - Page 3 - PoliticalGroove Forums</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-409</link>
		<dc:creator>Hillary Clinton's First Test Likely in Gaza - Page 3 - PoliticalGroove Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:11:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-409</guid>
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] would face continual conflict with Palestinians, with Hamas increasingly in the forefront.    The Middle East Blog - TIME.com » Blog Archive Cloud Over Gaza: A Silver Lining? «   And it is a religious war ON BOTH SIDES!!!!!!    [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jfjromey</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-403</link>
		<dc:creator>jfjromey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-403</guid>
		<description>Gaza and Beyond: As Zola said: j&#039;accuse!
 
The escalation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict presents a clear and present danger to the peace and stability of the region and to the long-term grave detriment of the security and image of the United States and its citizens worldwide.  It threatens to deteriorate into a wider conflict in which the United States, by its unchanging, long-standing support of the Israeli apartheid regime, risks being drawn at great future cost in American lives, treasure, and world standing.
 
The silence of our political class is deafening, only broken by US administration spokesmen blaming Hamas. 
 
Over a century ago, here in Paris, Emile Zola took on his government over the Dreyfus affair with the phrase j&#039;accuse--I accuse.
 
As a private American citizen, I choose to do the same, hereby exercising my right of free speech and dissidence--as hopefully still guaranteed by the United States Constitution which I many years ago unreservedly swore to defend and uphold when proudly commissioned 
 as a United States Army officer.
 
In consideration of the ongoing brutal assault against the Palestinian people in Gaza by Israeli armed forces, in violation of the standards, the spirit, and intent of international law, I hold the Israeli regime responsible for provoking the conflict and for the for the casualties on both side. Israel provoked the conflict by: 
 
â€˘	Illegally blockading Gaza for a protracted period, depriving the population of basic necessities, livelihood, and humanitarian resources, basic rights and liberties, particularly of movement, and of the pursuit of happiness.   
â€˘	Using said blockade as collective punishment and reprisal against the Palestinian people for choosing Hamas as the true representative of their aspirations and resistance to Israeli occupation  and state terrorism. Thereby forcing Hamas as duly elected representative of  the Palestinian people and resistance to occupation, to defend its people by the sole available means to attack the Occupantâ€™s territory if not military forces: inaccurate rockets of proven ineffectiveness.
â€˘	 Attacking Gaza with disproportionate force, causing massive civilian losses and infrastructure destruction totally disproportional to the comparatively minimal Israeli losses resulting from Palestinian Resistance rocket attacks.
â€˘	Continuing to occupy territories seized extra legally in 1967, if not 1949, by ethnic cleansing and held by all means of repression amounting, by strict definition, to state terrorism. 
 
 I wish to express my greatest concern and indignation at the long-time support the United States continues, at its own detriment, to provide the Israeli regime and of its complicity with the latter and member states of the international community in stripping the Palestinian Resistance of means of defense. I especially deplore the failure of successive US administrations to endorse, if not initiate and lead, a United Nations intervention commensurate with the extent of the problem. I therefore accuse the United States government of complicity with a country which, by its format and behavior, sustained by might alone, qualifies as a rogue state. 
 
I therefore request that the United States government:
 
â€˘	Demand immediate cessation of Israeli military operations in Gaza, withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and all Palestinian territories. 
â€˘	Hold the Israeli regime responsible for the conflict as the aggressor, for creating conditions leading to the conflict, for any resulting civilian losses on both sides, and for the degradation of the humanitarian situation in the region. 
â€˘	Stop all military and strategic support to Israel and impose an immediate and total embargo pending a change of regime. 
â€˘	Recognize Hamas as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people under occupation. 
â€˘	 Initiate and offer to lead a United Nations resolution for a Chapter VII-VIII peacemaking force intervention in all territories to the conflict, including that defined as Israel by the Israeli regime. The mandate should be modeled on the Yugoslavia intervention and include an Israeli regime change toward the formation of a multiethnic state out of what is today called Israel and Palestine.  A US Army Corps, approximately 100,000 troops coming out of Iraq, could provide the American contingent to the mission. 

JF Angevin-Romey
US Army, Retired
Paris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaza and Beyond: As Zola said: j'accuse!</p>
<p>The escalation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict presents a clear and present danger to the peace and stability of the region and to the long-term grave detriment of the security and image of the United States and its citizens worldwide.  It threatens to deteriorate into a wider conflict in which the United States, by its unchanging, long-standing support of the Israeli apartheid regime, risks being drawn at great future cost in American lives, treasure, and world standing.</p>
<p>The silence of our political class is deafening, only broken by US administration spokesmen blaming Hamas. </p>
<p>Over a century ago, here in Paris, Emile Zola took on his government over the Dreyfus affair with the phrase j'accuse--I accuse.</p>
<p>As a private American citizen, I choose to do the same, hereby exercising my right of free speech and dissidence--as hopefully still guaranteed by the United States Constitution which I many years ago unreservedly swore to defend and uphold when proudly commissioned<br />
 as a United States Army officer.</p>
<p>In consideration of the ongoing brutal assault against the Palestinian people in Gaza by Israeli armed forces, in violation of the standards, the spirit, and intent of international law, I hold the Israeli regime responsible for provoking the conflict and for the for the casualties on both side. Israel provoked the conflict by: </p>
<p>â€˘	Illegally blockading Gaza for a protracted period, depriving the population of basic necessities, livelihood, and humanitarian resources, basic rights and liberties, particularly of movement, and of the pursuit of happiness.<br />
â€˘	Using said blockade as collective punishment and reprisal against the Palestinian people for choosing Hamas as the true representative of their aspirations and resistance to Israeli occupation  and state terrorism. Thereby forcing Hamas as duly elected representative of  the Palestinian people and resistance to occupation, to defend its people by the sole available means to attack the Occupant's territory if not military forces: inaccurate rockets of proven ineffectiveness.<br />
â€˘	 Attacking Gaza with disproportionate force, causing massive civilian losses and infrastructure destruction totally disproportional to the comparatively minimal Israeli losses resulting from Palestinian Resistance rocket attacks.<br />
â€˘	Continuing to occupy territories seized extra legally in 1967, if not 1949, by ethnic cleansing and held by all means of repression amounting, by strict definition, to state terrorism. </p>
<p> I wish to express my greatest concern and indignation at the long-time support the United States continues, at its own detriment, to provide the Israeli regime and of its complicity with the latter and member states of the international community in stripping the Palestinian Resistance of means of defense. I especially deplore the failure of successive US administrations to endorse, if not initiate and lead, a United Nations intervention commensurate with the extent of the problem. I therefore accuse the United States government of complicity with a country which, by its format and behavior, sustained by might alone, qualifies as a rogue state. </p>
<p>I therefore request that the United States government:</p>
<p>â€˘	Demand immediate cessation of Israeli military operations in Gaza, withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza and all Palestinian territories.<br />
â€˘	Hold the Israeli regime responsible for the conflict as the aggressor, for creating conditions leading to the conflict, for any resulting civilian losses on both sides, and for the degradation of the humanitarian situation in the region.<br />
â€˘	Stop all military and strategic support to Israel and impose an immediate and total embargo pending a change of regime.<br />
â€˘	Recognize Hamas as the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people under occupation.<br />
â€˘	 Initiate and offer to lead a United Nations resolution for a Chapter VII-VIII peacemaking force intervention in all territories to the conflict, including that defined as Israel by the Israeli regime. The mandate should be modeled on the Yugoslavia intervention and include an Israeli regime change toward the formation of a multiethnic state out of what is today called Israel and Palestine.  A US Army Corps, approximately 100,000 troops coming out of Iraq, could provide the American contingent to the mission. </p>
<p>JF Angevin-Romey<br />
US Army, Retired<br />
Paris</p>
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		<title>By: nathan7777</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>nathan7777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:20:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-393</guid>
		<description>And the question about whether Israel&#039;s response is proportionate or not is a dumb question. Israel has a superior military. Any response Israel takes against an inferior foe will be disproportionate by nature. Israel can&#039;t exactly fire a Qassam rocket back 1 for 1 now can they?
.
What I am concerned about is that Israel believes the civilian casualties are acceptable. Michael Oren (spokesman for the Israeli military) just said today on NPR that he thinks 75% of all the Palestinians killed have been fighters. Yeah right. There&#039;s no way that 75% of the 500 killed have been fighters. Not when the first week consisted of nothing but airstrikes. 
.
Israel&#039;s decision that 500 and counting Palestinian dead and 2000 and counting wounded is an acceptable sacrifice is maddening. To even talk about &quot;acceptable levels of casualties&quot; is maddening enough. At what number of dead does it become unnacceptable? Does Israel even know? Do they have a specific rule for this? 750? 1000? 5000?
.
From my point of view it appears that Israel does not care how many palestinians they kill as long as they meet the goals of the incursion. If they find a target, then they will hit it regardless of the cost to innocents. From Israel&#039;s persepective, there are no innocents, only the complicit.
.
Israel has targeted mosques, schools, residences, and basic infrastructure. The explanation in every case has been that Hamas uses the target to store weapons or launch rockets or house high ranking officials. I&#039;m sure there is much truth to these claims. I know Israel would not bomb a school for fun. I know Hamas uses civilians as shields and hostages. But shooting through the hostage to kill the criminal is not any better than killing the criminal and then killing the hostage afterwards. To have restraint is to let the criminal go in order to avoid the loss of innocent life.
.
Israel is not showing restraint, and choosing not to destroy all of Gaza is not the restraint I&#039;m speaking of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the question about whether Israel's response is proportionate or not is a dumb question. Israel has a superior military. Any response Israel takes against an inferior foe will be disproportionate by nature. Israel can't exactly fire a Qassam rocket back 1 for 1 now can they?<br />
.<br />
What I am concerned about is that Israel believes the civilian casualties are acceptable. Michael Oren (spokesman for the Israeli military) just said today on NPR that he thinks 75% of all the Palestinians killed have been fighters. Yeah right. There's no way that 75% of the 500 killed have been fighters. Not when the first week consisted of nothing but airstrikes.<br />
.<br />
Israel's decision that 500 and counting Palestinian dead and 2000 and counting wounded is an acceptable sacrifice is maddening. To even talk about "acceptable levels of casualties" is maddening enough. At what number of dead does it become unnacceptable? Does Israel even know? Do they have a specific rule for this? 750? 1000? 5000?<br />
.<br />
From my point of view it appears that Israel does not care how many palestinians they kill as long as they meet the goals of the incursion. If they find a target, then they will hit it regardless of the cost to innocents. From Israel's persepective, there are no innocents, only the complicit.<br />
.<br />
Israel has targeted mosques, schools, residences, and basic infrastructure. The explanation in every case has been that Hamas uses the target to store weapons or launch rockets or house high ranking officials. I'm sure there is much truth to these claims. I know Israel would not bomb a school for fun. I know Hamas uses civilians as shields and hostages. But shooting through the hostage to kill the criminal is not any better than killing the criminal and then killing the hostage afterwards. To have restraint is to let the criminal go in order to avoid the loss of innocent life.<br />
.<br />
Israel is not showing restraint, and choosing not to destroy all of Gaza is not the restraint I'm speaking of.</p>
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		<title>By: Israel Rains Fire on Gaza With Phosphorus Shells - Page 2 - PoliticalGroove Forums</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>Israel Rains Fire on Gaza With Phosphorus Shells - Page 2 - PoliticalGroove Forums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-391</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Israel would face continual conflict with Palestinians, with Hamas increasingly in the forefront. The Middle East Blog - TIME.com » Blog Archive Cloud Over Gaza: A Silver Lining? «   Before Hamas, it was the PLO/Fatah that Israel fought. It doesn't matter what they call [...]</p>
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		<title>By: fhmadvocat</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-390</link>
		<dc:creator>fhmadvocat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-390</guid>
		<description>Scott,

I appreciate your sentiment.  However, I think the opposite will result from Israel&#039;s invasion of Gaza.  

I used to be under the illusion that Kadima and particularly labor would be preferable to Likud.  However, I would rather have a Likud government.  Likud does not need to prove it is tough like the other two parties and would have taken much more limited action in Gaza.

Hamas will not be weakened.  Unfortuately, it will be strengthened.  It was Hamas who defended the Gazans.  It is the Gazans who resisted the invasion.  Israel&#039;s invasion has severely weakened Abbas and he will be blamed (rightfully or wrongfully) for not defending the Palestinians.

I like Barak Obama, but I don&#039;t see any real leadership from his administration in this matter.  Too many &quot;Old Hands&quot; from the Bush and Clinton administration are running his Mid-East foreign policy.  He will continue to offer the same formulac statements regarding &quot;fighting terrorism&quot;, but I don&#039;t see him being an &quot;honest broker&quot; anymore than Clinton was.

Expecting anything from the Arab regimes is the biggest fantasy.  Their people was really angry and will even less supportive of peace with Israel.  Ironically, if democracy was present in the Arab world, Israel would face much more hostility.

One Israeli once said, &quot;The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.&quot;  However, the same can be said about the Israeli government.  It never fails to make a bad situation worse.  It only encourages its enemies.  It released hundreds of Hizbollah fighters for a few bones, yet it would not release more that a few to Abbas, who was not killing Israelis.  It withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, giving a victory to Hamas, while not negotiating with Abbas and allowing him to take credit for the withdrawl.  Only belatedly, has it released some prisoners to help Abbas and it continues to build settlements.  It continues to take more Palestinian land and can not understand why Abbas grows weaker in power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott,</p>
<p>I appreciate your sentiment.  However, I think the opposite will result from Israel's invasion of Gaza.  </p>
<p>I used to be under the illusion that Kadima and particularly labor would be preferable to Likud.  However, I would rather have a Likud government.  Likud does not need to prove it is tough like the other two parties and would have taken much more limited action in Gaza.</p>
<p>Hamas will not be weakened.  Unfortuately, it will be strengthened.  It was Hamas who defended the Gazans.  It is the Gazans who resisted the invasion.  Israel's invasion has severely weakened Abbas and he will be blamed (rightfully or wrongfully) for not defending the Palestinians.</p>
<p>I like Barak Obama, but I don't see any real leadership from his administration in this matter.  Too many "Old Hands" from the Bush and Clinton administration are running his Mid-East foreign policy.  He will continue to offer the same formulac statements regarding "fighting terrorism", but I don't see him being an "honest broker" anymore than Clinton was.</p>
<p>Expecting anything from the Arab regimes is the biggest fantasy.  Their people was really angry and will even less supportive of peace with Israel.  Ironically, if democracy was present in the Arab world, Israel would face much more hostility.</p>
<p>One Israeli once said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity."  However, the same can be said about the Israeli government.  It never fails to make a bad situation worse.  It only encourages its enemies.  It released hundreds of Hizbollah fighters for a few bones, yet it would not release more that a few to Abbas, who was not killing Israelis.  It withdrew from Gaza unilaterally, giving a victory to Hamas, while not negotiating with Abbas and allowing him to take credit for the withdrawl.  Only belatedly, has it released some prisoners to help Abbas and it continues to build settlements.  It continues to take more Palestinian land and can not understand why Abbas grows weaker in power.</p>
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		<title>By: persianadvocate</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>persianadvocate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-389</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;I strongly advise readers to peruse my comment above -- the second one down.&lt;/b&gt; There, I refute the myths perpetuated by the state-sponsored Israeli propaganda machine.
.
As for quelling an extremist viewpoint, Jacob, any country who has witnessed the US partially ruin itself by attacking Iraq like a rabid animal, especially one who looks up to the US so much for its financial and military support like Israel, should first question what is fueling that extremism and target it appropriately. The answer is not to invade and cause civilian deaths, creating more support for extremism.
.
The root of the conflict are Israel&#039;s policies and actions. As I&#039;ve said, Israel&#039;s not only ignored or made up meaningless excuses for its past mistakes and crimes against humanity, but now has plans to go full throttle down this ill road again in the future.
.
I suppose these Gazans, forced to a sliver of unfertile land from their former residences that now incidentally belong to the Israelis who are killing them, just popped up out of the sand and decided to hate Israel for some random occult Islam stereotype you&#039;ve dreamed up.
.
Israel&#039;s proportionate response would have been to end the blockade in wholehearted fashion and to derail Hamas&#039; purpose. If Israel gave the Palestinians real hope, and not some farce of a deal that really gave Pals nothing nor dealt with their numerous grievances justly, then Hamas would have no support amongst the people.
.
Instead, Israel is choosing to do what will not only strengthen Hamas in the end, but make Israel look like an evil puppet of US imperialism (vis a vis Bush) preying on a people without an official army or air force.  This is the mark of your leaders, Livni, Olmert, and Barak. Just like Bush, they rely on the sword to bend countries to their will. And just like Bush, it is working to their country&#039;s detriment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>I strongly advise readers to peruse my comment above -- the second one down.</b> There, I refute the myths perpetuated by the state-sponsored Israeli propaganda machine.<br />
.<br />
As for quelling an extremist viewpoint, Jacob, any country who has witnessed the US partially ruin itself by attacking Iraq like a rabid animal, especially one who looks up to the US so much for its financial and military support like Israel, should first question what is fueling that extremism and target it appropriately. The answer is not to invade and cause civilian deaths, creating more support for extremism.<br />
.<br />
The root of the conflict are Israel's policies and actions. As I've said, Israel's not only ignored or made up meaningless excuses for its past mistakes and crimes against humanity, but now has plans to go full throttle down this ill road again in the future.<br />
.<br />
I suppose these Gazans, forced to a sliver of unfertile land from their former residences that now incidentally belong to the Israelis who are killing them, just popped up out of the sand and decided to hate Israel for some random occult Islam stereotype you've dreamed up.<br />
.<br />
Israel's proportionate response would have been to end the blockade in wholehearted fashion and to derail Hamas' purpose. If Israel gave the Palestinians real hope, and not some farce of a deal that really gave Pals nothing nor dealt with their numerous grievances justly, then Hamas would have no support amongst the people.<br />
.<br />
Instead, Israel is choosing to do what will not only strengthen Hamas in the end, but make Israel look like an evil puppet of US imperialism (vis a vis Bush) preying on a people without an official army or air force.  This is the mark of your leaders, Livni, Olmert, and Barak. Just like Bush, they rely on the sword to bend countries to their will. And just like Bush, it is working to their country's detriment.</p>
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		<title>By: nathan7777</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-388</link>
		<dc:creator>nathan7777</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-388</guid>
		<description>Israel maintains that they don&#039;t want a long term presence in Gaza, yet I fail to see how they can achieve their stated aim of ending the rocket fire without doing so.
.
When pressed about this, Michael Oren told NPR that they hoped to force a cease fire on their terms or force Hamas to reconsider the costs of launching rockets at Israel.
.
In other words, Israel is trying to beat Hamas into submission. Haven&#039;t we seen this strategy before? Haven&#039;t we seen it fail?
.
Israel is right: the rocket fire must stop. But I am angered and saddened that Israel believes this military incursion into Gaza will somehow bring a solution.
.
The solution to the Gaza situation lies outside of Gaza and Israel. The weapons and the money and the rockets come from somewhere and they don&#039;t manufacture them in Gaza. Hamas&#039; benifactors must be convinced to renounce support for the group or the rocket attacks will simply resume once Israel leaves Gaza.
.
Israel&#039;s incursion will not bring peace, it will only create more hatred and suffering and spread the conflict into the West Bank.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israel maintains that they don't want a long term presence in Gaza, yet I fail to see how they can achieve their stated aim of ending the rocket fire without doing so.<br />
.<br />
When pressed about this, Michael Oren told NPR that they hoped to force a cease fire on their terms or force Hamas to reconsider the costs of launching rockets at Israel.<br />
.<br />
In other words, Israel is trying to beat Hamas into submission. Haven't we seen this strategy before? Haven't we seen it fail?<br />
.<br />
Israel is right: the rocket fire must stop. But I am angered and saddened that Israel believes this military incursion into Gaza will somehow bring a solution.<br />
.<br />
The solution to the Gaza situation lies outside of Gaza and Israel. The weapons and the money and the rockets come from somewhere and they don't manufacture them in Gaza. Hamas' benifactors must be convinced to renounce support for the group or the rocket attacks will simply resume once Israel leaves Gaza.<br />
.<br />
Israel's incursion will not bring peace, it will only create more hatred and suffering and spread the conflict into the West Bank.</p>
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		<title>By: jacobblues</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-387</link>
		<dc:creator>jacobblues</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-387</guid>
		<description>Just remember to use scan your gaze on HAMAS some day Syedh.  The group that initiated this round of fighting was the same group that declared the ceasefire was over, and increased its rocket attacks (not that they ever stopped) over the past month despite repeated requests and warnings by Israel to return to discussions about ending the violence. 
.
.
At the end of the day, HAMAS&#039; rhetoric and rockets will carry it into the desert or a funeral pyre.  Given the commentary from its leadership, I&#039;m not sure which end they&#039;re hoping for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just remember to use scan your gaze on HAMAS some day Syedh.  The group that initiated this round of fighting was the same group that declared the ceasefire was over, and increased its rocket attacks (not that they ever stopped) over the past month despite repeated requests and warnings by Israel to return to discussions about ending the violence.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
At the end of the day, HAMAS' rhetoric and rockets will carry it into the desert or a funeral pyre.  Given the commentary from its leadership, I'm not sure which end they're hoping for.</p>
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		<title>By: jacobblues</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-386</link>
		<dc:creator>jacobblues</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 19:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-386</guid>
		<description>Nothing ad hominem about my arguments at all Nick.  Just trying to put some reality into your table pounding. 
.
.
We&#039;ll start with Dershowitz.  I ignored your accusation of plagarism because its part of the Dershowitz / Finkelstein Feud, and apparently is a charge which was repudiated by Harvard University which makes your point immaterial at best. 
.
.
When you attempted to smear Dershowitz though, you included this statement &quot;...and defender of OJ Simpson, defends another killer in this respect&quot;. 
.
.
Your argument, is one that Dershowitz defends &quot;killers&quot;.  The fact is, as I pointed out above, whether or not one believes OJ murdered his former wife and friend, there is the Constitutional right to a legal defense, and a presumption of innocence.  If not a lawyer to provide legal advice for an accused, then who?  Apparently for you, legal council is acceptable, but only for those you find acceptable.  
.
.
By making your claim that Dershowitz &quot;defended OJ Simpson&quot; as a means to refute his arguments for Israel, you are attempting to make his actions as a defense attorney wrong.  
.
.
As for the argument that Israel&#039;s attacks against HAMAS is disproportionate or not, has nothing to do with his practice as a defense attorney.  What makes your argument even more farcical is your own screen name.
.
.
As for Iran, it has everything to do with the situation. Your argument makes the claim that by pretending to stand up for the Palestinians, Iran gains influence vis i vis the Arab states. 
.
.
My point, is that Iran as well as yourself, are nothing more than hypocrites.  First off, Iran has been in the thick of this mess as a military supporter of HAMAS, and before them Yasser Arafat.  So much for helping the peace process along.  Second, while Iran claims to stand up for freedom, it has no problem whatsoever to chaining its own populace, including attacking its own human rights champions.  
.
.
The idea that news of the Iranian government trashing the offices of Shirin Ebadi is considered a &quot;disparaging statement&quot; shows that while you are an advocate, you have little if any credibility in your arguments.  
.
.
As for Israel&#039;s response, the reality is, it is facing a group that is firing at its civilians, and has done so daily, for the past eight years, with the latest barrage hitting an Israeli elementary school, the second such strike in a week.  The fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza three years ago, only to see the rocket fire continue is why Israel developed its blockade of Gaza. 
.
.
So keep pounding those tables Nick, just let us know when you want to return to reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing ad hominem about my arguments at all Nick.  Just trying to put some reality into your table pounding.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
We'll start with Dershowitz.  I ignored your accusation of plagarism because its part of the Dershowitz / Finkelstein Feud, and apparently is a charge which was repudiated by Harvard University which makes your point immaterial at best.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
When you attempted to smear Dershowitz though, you included this statement "...and defender of OJ Simpson, defends another killer in this respect".<br />
.<br />
.<br />
Your argument, is one that Dershowitz defends "killers".  The fact is, as I pointed out above, whether or not one believes OJ murdered his former wife and friend, there is the Constitutional right to a legal defense, and a presumption of innocence.  If not a lawyer to provide legal advice for an accused, then who?  Apparently for you, legal council is acceptable, but only for those you find acceptable.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
By making your claim that Dershowitz "defended OJ Simpson" as a means to refute his arguments for Israel, you are attempting to make his actions as a defense attorney wrong.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
As for the argument that Israel's attacks against HAMAS is disproportionate or not, has nothing to do with his practice as a defense attorney.  What makes your argument even more farcical is your own screen name.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
As for Iran, it has everything to do with the situation. Your argument makes the claim that by pretending to stand up for the Palestinians, Iran gains influence vis i vis the Arab states.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
My point, is that Iran as well as yourself, are nothing more than hypocrites.  First off, Iran has been in the thick of this mess as a military supporter of HAMAS, and before them Yasser Arafat.  So much for helping the peace process along.  Second, while Iran claims to stand up for freedom, it has no problem whatsoever to chaining its own populace, including attacking its own human rights champions.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
The idea that news of the Iranian government trashing the offices of Shirin Ebadi is considered a "disparaging statement" shows that while you are an advocate, you have little if any credibility in your arguments.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
As for Israel's response, the reality is, it is facing a group that is firing at its civilians, and has done so daily, for the past eight years, with the latest barrage hitting an Israeli elementary school, the second such strike in a week.  The fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza three years ago, only to see the rocket fire continue is why Israel developed its blockade of Gaza.<br />
.<br />
.<br />
So keep pounding those tables Nick, just let us know when you want to return to reality.</p>
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		<title>By: syedh03</title>
		<link>http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/01/04/cloud-over-gaza-a-silver-lining/comment-page-1/#comment-385</link>
		<dc:creator>syedh03</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mideast.blogs.time.com/?p=714#comment-385</guid>
		<description>trying to find optimizim in this scenario is impossible. all the points that were listed as possible sliverlinings are merely just fantasies at this point. the follwing are rebudles to the &quot;silverlinings&quot;:

1.)Barak being the maggot who orchestrated this genocide and Livni being the spokesperson for it is clearly going to be in the minds of the Palestinians and the world. Everyone is aware they started this gruesome attack so any negotiations with those sitting at the table are impossible. 

2.) Hamas will gain support thru sympathy and behind the rallying cries of all the Palestinians. The whole notion that Israel thinks that people will turn on Hamas over these attacks is false. Everyone is aware of who sent the helicopters, fighter jets and tanks it. This is probably just going to garner more support for Hamas thru out the region. 

3.) President Obama has showed that change is not coming to foreign policy of the United States. During the Russian-Georgia conflict he was out and opens on the issue and making all sorts of statements. This situation is much more severe and the fact that he is going to hide behind the â€śone president at a timeâ€ť statement is just a reflection that nothing will change. His speech at AIPAC conference was a clear indication about where he stands on this issue. 

4.) The Arab â€śleadershipâ€ť (mainly Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan) has proven it is useless and worthless in times of crises. With the exception of making weak one line statements where they mainly blamed Hamas for this mass murder their lack of effort is defending the Palestinians will be in the minds of all the people in these regions. The Arab leaders will not be taken seriously anymore on this issue and have proven they are what everyone always suspected they were to begin with, a fraud. This has only increased Iranâ€™s influence in the region because they were the most adamant in supporting the Palestinians and continue to do so. Any hopes of an Israeli Syrian peace talks are done and over and the days of turkey serving as a mediator for Israel are over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>trying to find optimizim in this scenario is impossible. all the points that were listed as possible sliverlinings are merely just fantasies at this point. the follwing are rebudles to the "silverlinings":</p>
<p>1.)Barak being the maggot who orchestrated this genocide and Livni being the spokesperson for it is clearly going to be in the minds of the Palestinians and the world. Everyone is aware they started this gruesome attack so any negotiations with those sitting at the table are impossible. </p>
<p>2.) Hamas will gain support thru sympathy and behind the rallying cries of all the Palestinians. The whole notion that Israel thinks that people will turn on Hamas over these attacks is false. Everyone is aware of who sent the helicopters, fighter jets and tanks it. This is probably just going to garner more support for Hamas thru out the region. </p>
<p>3.) President Obama has showed that change is not coming to foreign policy of the United States. During the Russian-Georgia conflict he was out and opens on the issue and making all sorts of statements. This situation is much more severe and the fact that he is going to hide behind the â€śone president at a timeâ€ť statement is just a reflection that nothing will change. His speech at AIPAC conference was a clear indication about where he stands on this issue. </p>
<p>4.) The Arab â€śleadershipâ€ť (mainly Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan) has proven it is useless and worthless in times of crises. With the exception of making weak one line statements where they mainly blamed Hamas for this mass murder their lack of effort is defending the Palestinians will be in the minds of all the people in these regions. The Arab leaders will not be taken seriously anymore on this issue and have proven they are what everyone always suspected they were to begin with, a fraud. This has only increased Iran's influence in the region because they were the most adamant in supporting the Palestinians and continue to do so. Any hopes of an Israeli Syrian peace talks are done and over and the days of turkey serving as a mediator for Israel are over.</p>
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